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08 January 2007

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Karl Elvis

Whose pussy is this?

That gets to me. That whole bit of dialog. It's *exactly* like something I'd say in bed - growling out words of ownership (you're mine. say it. You're mine), or that I want to mark my partner as such, forever.

Almost gave me goose-bumps, reading that dialog from you and your man.

As to marriage - i agree with you on both sides of the ambivalence. I find marriage, as we play it in our culture - to be a bizarre artifact of some older society. For some reason it holds far too strong a sway in our interactions and in our politics today.

As a guy who's been married for way, way too long, I always say, 'don't get married', or 'I'd never get married again.'

Yet...

I can't stop thinking in romantic terms about marriage. I think I've proposed to you at least two or three times in your blog comments; I've remarked in my own blog that 'I'm about to move to new zealand to marry that cute model on the skull ring web site'.

When I imagine those I'm truly in love with, or have been in love with, I imagine marrying them. Not just because I have ownership fantasies (i do that, but said fantasies contain far more of marks than of rituals), but because I feel the need of a huge symbolic gesture that says forever.

I don't know what it is, buried deep in our collective unconscious, but the idea of marriage is profoundly compelling one, even if, in practice, it's often far, far more trouble than it's worth.

For what it's worth, Donny's a fool to say no. Who else will ever beg him fuck me with your epic, fat-bellied cock in bed?

Heidi

the commitment that brings you to that white-haired vision does not need the legal documents. i wonder why you don't want to admit this want even to your therapist. in my experience that which you resist is the very thing you most need to delve into.

my impression of you from all that i've read so far, you're an incredibly smart, incredibly focussed, incredibly together woman, but once in a while you let insecurities peek out at us. you've taken control of your body and your life in the ways you've needed, to create a life that's more than about survival. you write about the marriage idea as a strong vision, give a hint at destiny. why, with your history of ambivalence, is this an "unquestioning certitude?" how much does this have to do with that other emotional revealing, that you've "never really felt able or worthy or deserving of love?" why do you ask the question during sex?

i ask these questions with love, not to pick at you. that place where you barely dare go, i suspect once you figure it out, it will have incredible depth. don't stop at "destiny". love can be mysterious, but much more interesting and complex than that.

what is it about "legal" that fulfills your love?

i know for me, the marriage license is a thing that gives me the certain knowledge that i cannot possibly be excluded from my beloved should he land in the hospital. i have the right to fulfill his wishes should he die, and his family cannot override me. the same with his money. these are the practical things i am grateful for.

but the other things that come with the marriage license i don't need. do you? people treat us differently. we are more of a unit to them. they give us an expectation of ownership and privileges. we must answer the question of babies...there's an assumption we want them.

i too have had that feeling of certitude in the past, for someone else. now that is a distant memory and i don't quite know if i was hopped up on the neurochemistry of love, or if there was some deep need that i was looking for someone to fill, or some more mystical reason like a past life together. or maybe it is something about love itself, and that is something that happens when one is at a certain stage of inner development with respect to love. i know there is a strong pull to view it as destiny, especially if in spite of all one's past views.

JacksRBad

I find myself in the rare position of actually posting a comment to a blog. I read them only when the topics interest me and only when they are well written.

This post regarding your ambivalent desire to be married forced me out of the shadows.

DO NOT DO IT!

I would also advise your Donny in the same way for the following reasons:

1. Marriage is a contract. Unaware of either of your financial circumstances, I don't know who would be at the risk of financial loss but it still stands that marriage is a very lopsided, detestable contract in which, at dissolution, one or the other parties get fucked (and not in a good way).

2. Marriage puts huge amounts of stress (as you noted) on the two people committing to one another. Suddenly that which felt natural and right...and hot, let us not forget hot, feels scary, over-determined and claustrophobic.

3. Marriage has an insidious way of changing your life and the way you live it. Many call this "settling down". I call it settling. You no longer do fabulous things together. There is no impetus to keep things fresh. You agreed to love each other warts and all...and believe me, the warts will come out and all too soon.

I believe that there are reasons for marriage. I believe that if you intend to have children it is better to be married. Not out of any moralistic reasoning but simply because the resources of two people focused on a child give that child a better opportunity to grow into something truly spectacular. But barring children, there is no good excuse.

nymphobrainiac

As one who has been married for many moons, I gotta say it certainly isn't a Chicago song or a Julia Robers movie. (and thank god, the treacle would kill me slowly) It's not easy, it's not always rewarding and it certainly isn't always romantic. (Ain't a lick of romance in a money fight, let me tell you.) What it is, though, is a safe place to land, a source of a lot of joy and what keeps me going on most days. I do consider myself a feminist, but I don't think I compromised that when I got hitched. I always figured I'd never get married, but when I met my man, I knew it was the right thing to do. And even when it's been at it's roughest, I've never regretted it.
Marriage - when it's right - isn't about ownership or losing a part of who you are. It's about having someone around who can be a witness to your life. (I stole that from some otherwise bad romantic comedy) There is great comfort in knowing that I have someone who can see all my quirks, my funky moods and my general oddness and love me anyway. I like knowing that he's going to be here every night to chat about our day, come up with hairbrained schemes, celebrate our successes and fix our failures. Heh, plus it's nice to know where my next great fuck is going to come from.
It sounds like your Donny is a great guy, and it seems to me that your heart and head have already told you this is right for the two of you. You don't seem like the type of woman who would let marriage interfere with who you are at the core, and isn't that the real truth of feminism? Isn't it the freedom to make our own choices, based on who we are and what we want?
~nym

Heidi

nym, i agree with you that we are free to make our choices. well, some of us are, anyway.

but i am wondering, can't you have all those things you listed without marriage? i would hope the commitment exists, and the comfort, and the sweet intimacy, with or without the legal document. some people, perhaps most people, are profoundly affected by the ceremony, the public witnessing of the commitment. but it is also an illusion to expect marriage to bring that comfort and intimacy.

i would disagree with jacksrbad who advises don't do it. but i am also curious about what deep profound need it is that marriage meets that can't be met by simple honesty, commitment, and love. with my first marriage i could see the difference in my husband. he felt a security he didn't feel before the signing of the papers. i felt no different. i got married a second time as a path of least resistance, legally. we could have drawn up partnership agreements for mutually owned property, filed separate tax returns on that property, drawn up wills and living wills, and who knows what else. or we could get married and sign one document, so we did. in that instance it did not change anything between us, the commitment was already there. what it did change is how people view us.

i am reminded of a feminist exercise i did once. the group of women was asked to say, "what i like about being a lesbian is....." and fill in the blank. whether straight or gay, we came up with some aspect of loving a woman that appealed to us. the punch line at the end: all those things we named, barring sex, women could and shouldhave with each other, gay or straight. i think it's the same with marriage. barring the legal rights, i don't see how marriage provides something that we can't already have. chelsea girl hints at some deep archetypal satisfaction, must it be the legal document that provides that?

pandora

many women feel the same, as do I.

Isaak

I don't understand marriage first and foremost as a legal action but rather as a promise. Of course there is the danger of stagnation but at the same time the securing knowledge that you will be with that other person when they are old and wrinkly and that they will be with you. That is if promises still mean something. It's about developing yourself with that other person. Maybe even sometimes inspite of the other person. I don't see how marriage has anything to do with feminism. You are free to choose to love the other one every single day. You have the freedom to make that promise or not. You have the freedom to act in love towards Donny or not. You even have the freedom to live together or parallel lives. This is not about being romantic but whether you believe in a promise. So do you want to be with Donny when he's old and wrinkly or when things are rough and also when everythings going well and he just managed to seduce you again?

VJ

Simply beautiful CG. Very you & very romantic too. Marriage is 1000's of things. It's many things to many people, but it can be your thing with your person. And he/she likewise. Your own creation. Nothing else, nothing more. It's art. It's war. It's a mountain weathered by the elements. It's the sea with it's ever changing moods.

Practically though, it's a legal contract that's easily recognized in all states, and affords at last count some 20K odd benefits that would take quite a bit of trouble and time to replicate with a bevy of good lawyers and enough time to work up all the applicable contracts. This was part of the argument behind the Human Rights campaign of gay marriage or equivalent civil union.

So here, besides the fantastic sex, (never anything to sneeze at BTW), there's lots of good reasons for marriage, even today. It's the way the world works, not the way we hoped it would, but the way it does.

Here's wishing you & Donny All the Best wishes for a Great New Year. Cheers, 'VJ'

VJ

Oh yeah, for some homework everyone ought to read a bit of Stephanie Coontz on the state of modern marriage & where it's been & where it might be going. Prof. Coontz is the author recently of the book: "Marriage, a History: How Love Conquered Marriage", based on her 30 years of research. It's excellent stuff, and I'd highly recommend it. Mazel Tov to you both! Cheers& Good Luck, 'VJ'

b

Hi ChelseaGirl,

I've been reading for a few months now and am so thankful for your writing, your brazen honesty, and the way you provide a window into just how full and rich a woman's sexuality can be. I find you an inspiration. I'd like to give my 2 cents on the marriage question.

I was married for 12 years to a man I met at age 19, married at 24, and divorced at 36. We had been living together for 4 years when we finally did the deed, and I was skeptical at the time about the whole idea. He wanted it, not I, and being an atheist and not wanting to have children together, it seemed like a meaningless legal formality to me. I believe marriages and divorces are made between two people in the privacy of their relationship, and the rest is just paperwork. Well, ... and in the case of marriage, a party and honeymoon. I went along with it for the sake of those two fringe benefits, fulfilling the girly cinderella white-dress fantasy and all that jazz. I knew at the time I had the wrong attitude and was with the wrong person for me, but I stayed with it out of fear of being able to be on my own, lack of confidence in being able to ever have a truly great relationship with the right man, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Now that I'm finally a grown-up at 38 and have the confidence to live authentically and not settle for safe things out of fear, I find that I actually believe in marriage now, and not for the legality aspect or for the party this time. Now that I've had a chance to find out how it feels to be with someone I truly love and admire and want to be with, I realize what marriage means to me that appeals so strongly: family. Unless you marry your love, they will never be part of your family or you part of theirs. Your spouse is the only family member you get to specifically choose. The same goes for adopting a child. Why adopt? Why not just live in the same house and love them? Well, because without marriage or adoption, you're not family. They are not in your clan. I think it's a beautiful thing when two people say to the world: "We are family now." It is powerful and meaningful. No one can keep you from each others' side if you wind up in the hospital or need someone to speak for you. The world respects family ties, and there is no more powerful statement you can make to each other or the world than to invite someone into your life in this way.

I hope you and Donny find that you share this feeling. I just had to end a relationship, because I found that I was alone in desiring this level of togetherness. It's not for everyone.

nymphobrainiac

Heidi - ooh, I like you already and I've only read a handful of comments. : )
Actually, the thought you presented - what did I mention that couldn't be attained with a strong commitment - did go through my head right after I hit "post." I guess the main thing is a marriage is a lot harder to get out of. Not impossible, of course, but still difficult. I think that level of commitment makes most of us try a little harder. It's saying to your partner that you want to be there forever, that you aren't going to pack up and go when something seemingly better comes along. (Not that plenty of folks don't do that anyway... but it's a lot easier to leave a non-legalized commitment than it is to leave a marriage)

And like b said in the comment above - marriage makes you family. I agree that it isn't for everyone, and I'm sure many couples are very happy NOT taking that step. All the comforts I mentioned in my previous post were present before the big day with the cake and the DJ, but the marriage helped to cement them. (we were together for seven years before we took the plunge, too) Love is love, with paperwork to back it up or not, but I think marriage CAN work, and that for some of us, that extra step was natural and even necessary.

Whether you take the big leap or not, CG, I wish you and Donny years and years and years of swinging from the rafters sex, fabulous adventures and lots of gushy love. Finding a partner you can mesh so well with is such a rare and beautiful thing, the only thing to do is what's best for the two of you, no matter what society or the rest of us have to say about it.

Heh, I love this blog. So darned thought provoking! And full of lively, smart conversation. : )
~nym

Alice

God damn Chelsea Girl, I haven't read in awhile and managed to forget what a rockstar you are. Your writing is epic, it's a privilege to read you. No matter what happens between you and Donny, thanks for letting us in on it.

xo

Alice

Septguy

Morning CG..it's interesting that most of the responders to this post seem to be women..is that something about the topic or the fact that the male readers just chose not to react? Anyway, this was a good piece. I love how you can just lay out what's on your mind and express it in clear sentences. I ponder some of these deep questions but haven't been capturing them nearly as well as you.

Everyone that's responded has presented the pros and cons very well. Ultimately you've made your mind up and I don't think we're necessarily going to express something here that's going to change it significantly. We may contribute a thought that will get you to think about marriage in a bit different way but I sense that the gut feeling deep inside is too strong to be shaken by us, anyway. And I think that's good.

I've been married twice, the first time 25 years. Yes, that's right, 25 years. I was first married at the age of 21. I was way too young then, but I made a commitment and we had two children plus one of her own. Addiction issues on her part and a lonliness mine killed the marriage. Getting out of that marriage was one of the best actions I've taken in my life. My "adult" children are much better off for it and so am I.

I was single for 6 years, remarried 4 years ago. She has two daughters (in their 20's) but at the time we met and started getting serious about one another living together didn't seem like the right example. Others have mentioned "family" here and that's an important aspect. It's hard to feel like a family, I believe when one lives together. There's something about the act of marriage that helps provide some glue to bind people together. Yes, the financial issues as noted above, can be serious. (Get a prenup. It isn't romantic but it helps establish some grounds that can provide help later if necessary.)

Gosh I just gave you some advice didn't I..well anyway maybe you'll think about it.

Back to family. Being in my 50's, I hadn't thought about being a "father' necessarily to her two daughters given their ages. What I have found is the oldest is starting to open up to me more and ask for advice now and then and it's nice to feel that she's developing a relationship with me that I don't think would be there if we hadn't married. So, marriage brings about a difference in both positive and negative ways, that wouldn't be there if the act hadn't been done.

Work on keeping your relationship fresh, don't take Donny for granted and remind him to not take you, for granted.

Love the blog..we'll be looking for pictures of the event..:)

Cherry Bomb

Oh, as usual, this speaks right to the core of me...
I feel you.

Happy new year...
xxoo
CB

VJ

All interesting perspectives here. I'm a married guy too, and I'm old enough to recall way back when to be gay was almost to be w/o question to be against the 'ugly constraining bourgeois institution of marriage'. Then people changed a bit and settled down and rethought the issue, given all the legal deadends & roadblocks one encounters otherwise. So besides the romantic part, and the family connection part (probably paramount in most folks minds, BTW), there's the important & very real legal part. Me, I'd say that if your net worth is somewhere south of $1Million in cash or equities or land holdings, or you are not responsible for the inheritance of a long established family estate, you really have little need for a pre-nup, and this will only tend to complicate things needlessly. If we're trying to enforce some behavior code ahead of time with this instrument, this too is fairly useless and will probably come to naught and/or trouble before too long. IMHO.

Marriage is no bed of roses, but it's different at 40 than it is at 21. You simply should know more, be more experienced, and typically have a better sense of your wants and needs at that age than when you were half that age. I think they also tend to be longer lasting unions on average than the younger matches too. Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'

[And no, for the record, that's not my real email]

erica

A great and complex piece -- complex enough to do justice to marriage itself. It seems awfully sanctimonious, not to mention a bit hypocritical, though, for people who claim to be for "personal freedom" to be so snidely judgmental about others who choose marriage. Look, marriage isn't compulsory -- yet millions of people choose to embrace the ritual every year, for their own individual reasons. It's a custom that's worthy of respect, even if (particularly if, maybe) you don't follow it.

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