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10 December 2006

Comments

Alana

Hot fucking damn, CG. This is an incredible essay deserving not only much praise but wide-spread publication. This is now my most favorite piece of writing from you. What an argument you make. As per usual, you've got me thinking.

XXOO
A

Mark

That was a really good read. My two cents: why be good when being bad is so much more fun. :)

O

I have a theory that the default setting for most women is "good girl". It's not easy being a "good girl", but it's about conforming. Being a bad girl requires some self-invention, at least. Maybe that's why it's so appealing to be one.

I loved this post.

love
O


Heidi

I spent a good part of my life admiring bad girls but too afraid to be one, and too lacking in confidence (having always been fat) to think I could be one. When I truly embraced a polyamorous path, I confessed on some email list that I'd always wanted to be a slut. Now I am, kinda sorta.

Publicly, mostly I am still a good girl. I volunteer, I do work for the public good. I worry that the good works could be harmed by my bad girlness if the right people discover it. I don't keep it secret, but I don't advertise it either.

When I think back to the bad girls I admired in high school, I think that I wanted their power of choice. They could openly enjoy sex and sexiness. They certainly didn't seem to fear that.

They were friendly too, unlike the 'good girls'.

I admired (and still do) their boldness. I admire that about you, Chelsea Girl, as well as your intelligence and your sexiness.

mishagray

Excellent. I'm digging it!
http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Go_bad_girl_Go

Prince of Darfur

Bad girls are more daring and enjoy more freedom, but they don't have near as many dimensions as good girls. It's a false dichotomy. Your "(good girls) still have to like it only in certain prescribed regulated ways" tells me you have never fucked a good girl. Good girls are much better in bed than bad girls, in my experience.

Raven

Great writing. I have been analyzing this bad/good girl myths in my own life recently. This was eloquent.

liese

if you haven't read Elizabeth Wurtzel's Bitch: In Praise of Difficult Women, you should. she's not nearly so succinct as you, but it's an interesting and entertaining read.

Chris

Mae West was certainly queen of the Bad Girls, but there was one other rival for that crown: Tallulah Bankhead. What she had to say on the subject was, "Only good girls keep diaries. Bad girls don't have the time." You, along with every other female sexblogger, seem to have proved her wrong nicely.

Krysta

I only wish I could write half that well. Permission to reprint?

Goose

I'll have to post a full response to this. I think its time for a hybrid.

Jonathan

You might be interested in a test I did on my blog over the weekend - a fake post about Britney... you should have seen the hit spike it caused...

Orv

How could you skip the baddest bad girl of them all, Courtney Love? I just adore her, obviously brilliant (musician, actor, poet) and obviously totally out of control in almost every way. She has pissed off just about everyone and everything at some point, and we can all kiss her ass. I for one would be delighted to do so.

Paul

I think this is a false distinction, and it creates a silly opposition between personality traits that one could reasonably expect to find blended together in many people. Mae West might have been a bad girl, but she wasn't all bad girl. There are many women who are good girls but not all good, thankfully. Don't you think you're just playing to the stereotypes by offering up this either/or choice? Why can't Mommy whip daddy after the baby is in bed? Why can't the dominatrix harbor her own fantasies, not of whips and chains, but of domestication and smiling sweetly at dinner parties with boring people? Why should anyone have to choose between these roles?

chelsea girl

Yes, obviously the good girl/bad girl dichotomy is a false dilemma. I think that idea is the subtext of my piece, though perhaps I should have made it more oblique.

My point is less that there is this dyadic distinction than that our culture feels--even feels increasingly--the need to make it. I would have like to believe that feminism would make it less necessary, not more, to divide the good from the bad. Sadly, the opposite seems to be true.

No one is either bad girl or a good girl. Each, in its own way, is a fiction, is problematic and is impossible to inhabit.

I suppose I can attribute my lack of clarity on this matter to the fact that I wrote this piece in about 45 minutes and on cold medication. Of course Mommy can whip Daddy, if Mommy and Daddy want that. No one is arguing with your right to pleasure--or anyone else's--least of all me. I'm merely suggesting that perhaps as necessary as these terms have been to both proscribe and prescribe behavior, it's time to reconsider them.

kissykiss,
chelsea girl

Caliban

Someday someone somewhere will search for "Lindsey Lohan and Jean Rhys" and get to this post. But my question is: what do you know about Ariana Huffington that I don't (that makes her a bad girl)? I mean, she's just BAD, right? Also, for the record: Virginia Woolf, bad. Charlize Theron, good.

t'Sade

A wonderful little essay. It really does point out the double-standard in life, but also how there are so many people who are so... skittish about preceptions. I've been looking at the various "OMG" news in my mate's US Weekly and going "and..." because it was just someone expressing themselves, no reason to think they are destroying the world. The backlash from little things like that I feel is so completely out of place, it confuses me.

I say let them do what they want, as long as they harm no one. :)

Mu Ling

Great writing, but I think that the post only serves in the end to perpetuate and reinforce the dichotomy that you say you're critiquing. In the comments, you wrote, "Yes, obviously the good girl/bad girl dichotomy is a false dilemma. I think that idea is the subtext of my piece, though perhaps I should have made it more oblique."

More "oblique"? I'd have to say, maybe less "oblique." The subtext was so deeply buried behind the repeated invocation of the divide, with the accompanying proliferating examples, that I think most people missed it, especially judging by most of the comments. True, you did say, "And clearly no small part of the problem is our incessant will to categorize women. We don’t put men in the same categories." But after briefly expounding on that idea, the post seems to me to drop it instead of developing it further. And the last paragraph-- I got that the invocation of "balls" is meant to be ironic, but even so, in the context of the entire post, it felt to me as a valorization of "balls" as the sign of individuality, creativity and courage.

I don't know. I might be taking this all a bit too personally. I'm a good girl. Multiple degrees, married young, contributing to my retirement account, writing thank-you notes. I'm not hawt, I'm not rebellious, I'm not wild. If a guy tells me to go away, he's tired of me -- I go away, I don't smash in his windshield. I don't flash strangers in public. But none of this makes me a tool of the cultural order. I do try to see the world as it is, without illusions, to speak my mind, and to live my life on my own terms. How can someone like me exist? In the terms set out by this post, I can't, not really. The post touches on the possibility of living in the tension created by the divide, but it slides off that edge in the end.

chelsea girl

It's. A. Blog. Post.

I wrote it in 45 minutes on cold medicine. It's not a book. It hasn't been edited by an editor or vetted by scholars. I haven't spent hours or years agonizing over its organization or its phrasing. In rereading it and reading comments, do I find there are things I wish I'd said or said differently?

Yes. But let me reiterate for again time: blog post.

Something people sneak in reading while at work or before thier morning coffee.

Mu Ling, you exist as much as any of us do.

Holy crow, people.
chelsea

Mu Ling

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Gee whiz. I thought I was paying you a compliment by taking your ideas seriously. I know it's a blog post! I thought it was great, very thought-provoking. So yeah, my take on it is a little different from that of most of your other commenters. Surely you write to engage our minds and not just that part of us that goes all gooey over you!

I don't think I said anything that was rude or offensive. Maybe I was critical of your ideas, but I was civil about it. I offered my thoughts, not nitpicking over your grammar and wording.

I was hoping for an interesting discussion, and yeah, of course it would be a bloggy discussion, not a seminar at the Institute for Advanced Study. Given that this is a thinky blog as well as a sexy one, I didn't think I was being out of line, but I do apologize if I was.

StripGoddess

What a gorgeously well written ode!

Great job! <3

e

Sometimes being bad isn't as much fun as people think.

I spend most of my 20's being very, very bad. I was gleefully bad. It was simultaneously fun, exhilirating and exhausting, dangerous and depressing. Being bad is sometimes nothing more than being self-destructive.

The "good" path got it's reputation for a reason... it is well traveled and has reletively few dangers. It may not be an easier path, but it is less risky. Less risky but also less exciting. Funny how when you get a little older, excitement just seems, well, less exciting to you. That's probably what happened to Madonna.

The trick is reaching that point with as few scars as possible, I suppose. Or at least only with scars you can live with.

tom paine

Human nature has a love/hate relationship to success. Bad girls are successful, in that they're getting what they (and probably most of us) want. It's why Tony Soprano is sexy and admired: he does whatever he wants with no consequences. It's an old paradigm (the "tricky slave" of Roman comedy, or Monkey King in China).

So we admire a bad girl who does well for herself, then hoot and holler when she falls. It's definitely an example of bad faith, but perfect human.

I wrote a long post in praise of women who take control of their sexuality. I despise passive women who wheedle and moan about sex, and adore those ones who know what they want and go get it.

Kitty Laverne

I agree that Mu Ling was paying you a compliment with her close reading of your writing. The response of "it's just a blog post, written quickly, on meds" is not a rejoinder worthy of you, Ms. Post Graduate Faster Faster Kill Pussycat!

And while I'm here may I add that the silent film "Pandora's Box" starring Louise Brooks as Lulu is a fascinating study of this paradox, false dilemma, whatever you call it. Hell, her whole life was that story.

Your fan, Kitty

"gina'

i was always afraid to be a bad girl. people always saw me the EXACT opposite. i never thought that i had it in me. now that i'm coming into my new self i realized that being a bad girl is a hell of a lot more fun. and now i always get what i want! keep up the good work

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